Comments on: Scientific Punch-Up Over Idea That Fighting Shaped Our Hands

By: Jason Dowd

Jason Dowd — Fri, 28 Dec 2012 20:52:53 +0000

“Far from the truth lay the antique assumption that man had fathered the weapon. The weapon, instead, had fathered man.”

Robert Ardrey

By: Alex Fairchild

Alex Fairchild — Thu, 27 Dec 2012 13:19:01 +0000

Alright, new digs at natgeo!

Another option: good ol neutral drift. Primate hand proportions are all over the map, let’s not hunt for selection on every feature.

By: TR Gregory

TR Gregory — Mon, 24 Dec 2012 16:49:42 +0000

My follow up post:

http://www.genomicron.evolverzone.com/2012/12/another-just-so-story-this-time-about-fists/

By: Dave

Dave — Fri, 21 Dec 2012 21:50:28 +0000

I agree with Tom Swift – I could (when younger) break boards with the karate reverse punch. I doubt if it would be possible with the boxing punch.

The reason is that the karate punch is delivered to the target with the maximum possible speed (straight line) with the most energy transfer (because the striking area is small) allowing the energy (half-m-v-squared) to transfer quickly to the target and doing the most local damage.

The boxing punch, by contrast relies on momentum transfer over a wider area and does more concussive damage in a larger volume.

When martial artists wear gloves they can’t develop the fist so favour the boxing style when using hand-blows.

Anyway, more to the point, the article is making a completely non-testable hypothesis.

It is like claiming that earlobes developed so that we could wear earrings. Or that our fingers are long so we can pick our noses.

And I’d still hit someone with a spanner (oops wrench) given the choice.

By: Bas

Bas — Fri, 21 Dec 2012 16:38:52 +0000

Left hook palm strike to the liver!

Seriously though, palm strikes seem much less risky, as far as breaking bones in the hand, and according to this article, they deliver the same amount of force as a closed fist, though reducing reach slightly.

By: Tom Swiss

Tom Swiss — Fri, 21 Dec 2012 15:12:52 +0000

According to a karate proverb, it takes three years to learn to make a fist. (And three more to learn proper stance, and three more to put it all together and have a proper punch.) Kids very often put their thumb on the inside, and even boxers (who are used to those big gloves and so often don’t know how to make a good fist) often strike with the small knuckles of the third and fourth fingers, rather than the proper first and second. So it’s not very instinctive.

The idea that karate punches were “designed” to punch through wooden armor is based on a mythological history of karate.

A hammer-fist or knife-hand (“karate chop”) blow can certainly be effective, but its circular motion is more easily blocked or dodged than a linear thrust. Elbow blows can also be highly effective, but have less range. So the punch has an important place in a fighter’s toolbox.

Even a dilettante like me who sticks with karate training long enough will develop a punch capable of breaking a stack of four 1-inch pine boards. I’ve seen real experts break stacks of concrete blocks. And there’s not a tremendous difference between a karate “reverse punch” and a boxer’s “straight right” (except for the fist training). So the idea that boxing punches are somehow designed to limit injury strikes me as another myth. (Martial arts are full of them, sadly.)

By: William Jungers

William Jungers — Fri, 21 Dec 2012 14:46:13 +0000

The hominin thumb remains a relatively mobile and gracile organ until quite late in human evolution, millions of years after the origins of bipedalism. And the modern ape thumb (e.g., chimpanzee digital proportions) is almost certainly not primitive for the LCA — and earlier Miocene “apes” possess relatively long thumbs along with relatively short hands (see Sergio Almejica’s pubs on this front). .

By: Ed Yong

Ed Yong — Thu, 20 Dec 2012 23:14:44 +0000

Lou and Jorge, as I mentioned up above, we've passed the comments about the comment boxes to our tech folks. This is something we raised at the start, but there were other more important design elements to straighten out.

By: badfrog

badfrog — Thu, 20 Dec 2012 21:24:58 +0000

Just no. I owned a chain of kung fu and tai chi schools for 25 years and have spent over 45 years training. The fist is not the most effective hand shape, and the punch is deliberately designed for pro boxing to limit the damage and deaths. The most powerful movement above the waist is called brachiation, the movement monkeys and apes use to swing through the trees. Used properly, it will kill another man, and break your fist. The hands are tools, not weapons. The power strikes are with hammer fists and chops, using the pisciform bone of the wrist, which is very solidly attached. Still better is a stone or a stick. If you want to see what the real weapons are, study the larger monkeys. They slap and pinch, headbutt, grab and throw, grab and break. And bite, which I also have practiced extensively. I have NEVER seen a monkey make a fist, and I have looked extensively, especially with the black macaques, which are the largest monkey in the world at over 110 pounds. One to one, they can kill any man. This idea is simply incorrect. We are toolmakers, not fighters. Fighters have claws or other obvious weapons. We have brains. In a group, with weapons, our organization has allowed us to overcome all opposition.

By: Jorge Silva

Jorge Silva — Thu, 20 Dec 2012 20:45:32 +0000

@Lou Jost, not making excuses for bad design (it would have been very easy to make the input element fit the width of the container, whatever that would be on any given screen) but your situation can be ameliorated by clicking and dragging down the bottom right of the comments box. Make that as big as you like and then start typing.